Episode 26 of the Superior Spider-Talk podcast is here and boy oh boy is it a big one! In this episode, Dan Gvozden and I talk about Superior Spider-Man #23, answer your fan mail, discuss upcoming Spider-Man solicitations and the Amazing Spider-Man 2 trailer, and then are joined by former Amazing Spider-Man penciler Ron Frenz, who discusses Amazing Spider-Man #258 with us, an issue he illustrated during his epic run with the “legendary Tom DeFalco” during the mid-1980s.
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Thanks again for Ron for appearing on the show and being such an ardent supporter of Superior Spider-Talk!
Boy, I feel bad for you guys. It’s gonna be so devastating for you when the Green Goblin is revealed to be Peter Parker. If you post an address, I can mail you some special egg-wiping towels for your faces. They should reach you in time for the conclusion to Goblin Nation.
We should address this theory on the podcast soon. Prepare yourself to get egged because there is no way in hell that I think that this is going to happen.
You may be right. I’m about three issues behind on Superior now. Could be something in there that totally invalidates the theory. On the other hand, you guys thought the Amazing Spider-Man 2 trailer looked awesome, so what do you really know anyway?
PS: More Ron Frenz, please. Incredibly insightful and thoughtful guy, and it’s just touching to hear how much he genuinely loves the character. I heard him say “anytime” when you invited him to do more episodes. You should take that literally!
Something that invalidates the theory? Besides the fact that Ghost Peter was making appearances in Superior while the Goblin was introduced, or the fact that the Goblin sent goons to blow up MJ’s nightclub in Superior #10, or the fact that making Peter in control of the Green Goblin’s body, based on how the Green Goblin or his surrogates have been acting in all of these issues, would blow away Quesada’s “Deal with the Devil” in terms of total tone-deafness and lack of understanding of the character? We’ll obviously address this theory on the show, but I have no understanding how this theory has legs. Peter’s memories are still stuck within Otto and this whole storyline will be resolved when Otto admits he’s not superior and cedes control of the body back to Peter. That’s my theory which I’m basing on the scene in Superior #19 that we got.
It’s very easy to explain the goons he sent to MJ’s nightclub. First of all, I don’t think MJ’s club should matter much to Norman Osborn, who doesn’t know Spidey’s identity. Second, the fact that he sent the goons to MJ’s means that he knows they’re going to be there and can intervene if necessary (e.g. he could be testing to see if Ock will protect MJ). The goons at MJ’s is not a hole in the theory, it’s misdirection.
As for Peter acting Goblin-y, I mean he has to if he’s going to disguise himself as the Green Goblin. Otherwise it’s not much of a disguise. As I said in my last post, actions speak louder than words, and barring the last three issues, we haven’t seen the Goblin do anything evil. He’s got a great big criminal empire at his command, and they never do anything on panel. The only crime I’ve seen a Goblin commit was some low level Goblin-tattoo guy dealing what he claims are drugs. Not much for a Kingpin-level criminal empire.
But I’ll admit, the two main reasons I think it’s Peter are
(1) I’m 99% sure Superior’s wrapping up with Goblin Nation and maybe an epilogue, as you guys mention on the podcast. Definitely pre-ASM2. Corporate synergy will always trump story here. That means somehow the big Goblin arc has to tie into the return of Peter arc, and one reasonably plausible way that can happen is if it turns out Peter and the Goblin are the same.
And the main reason:
(2) As far as I know, the only other possibly viable candidate is Norman Osborn, and that would be an incredibly awful reveal for a number of reasons I outlined in my previous post on the topic (I wanna say 3 podcasts ago). To briefly reiterate some of them:
(a) It’s fanboyish in a bad way. For example, if you’re reading Superior as a self-contained story, you won’t even know who Norman Osborn is. He’s never appeared in the series before. In fact, he hasn’t appeared in the Spider books since pre-Big Time.
(b) The text overtly points to it being Norman Osborn. It is quite clear that the text WANTS you to believe this is Norman Osborn. What kind of mystery has all the clues pointing to the actual true identity of the mystery man?
I don’t think that agreeing with some of your points means that I agree with your thesis but I do think it is odd that all the points lead to an obvious reveal, which is why I think it is a bit more complicated than it just being Norman Osborn behind the mask. That being said, it seems obvious that Norman is behind the mask and I have no idea what it being Peter would:
a) add to the narrative outside of some huge reveal
b) say about Peter character-wise
c) reveal about Otto and his handling of the Spider-Man title
Those are just the start of the problems with this theory, one that I mentioned at the beginning of our first couple of podcasts as something that I thought could be fun at the time and have since back away from because it makes no sense. You are making justifications that make no sense in order to validate your theory.
If Peter is in fact in Goblin’s brain then why would he feel the need to keep up a persona? You are saying that this is his thought process, “Hmmm… let me see how prepared Otto is by firebombing a place that has one of my closest loved ones in it. I’ll make no attempt to save them or mitigate the damage… but it will give me valuable intel on what he’s capable of in my body.” If that is Peter’s thought process then let’s truly hope that he died in #700 to never return.
You make an interesting point that the Goblin hasn’t really been committing crimes, but I don’t think that is his MO for now anyway. He knows that if he shows his hand as a criminal he will have Spider-Man’s attention onto him, bots or not. He is gathering an empire underground that he can deploy when he is ready. Has this been handled in the best of ways narratively… I would argue no… but I don’t think that that implies evidence that Peter Parker is controlling the body of Norman Osborn.
I disagree that the “one reasonably plausible way that can happen is if it turns out Peter and the Goblin are the same,” in terms of how this series can end with Goblin Nation. How about Doctor Octopus gets put in a situation, possibly the threatened death of Ana Maria, where he has to really dig for the memories of Peter to overcome (ie. Superior #19) and completely unearth’s Peter’s memories and consciousness. The two will battle it out or help each other in overcome some obstacle with Ock eventually stepping down and realizing his inferiority. That to me seems far more in keeping with the themes and ideas of the Superior Spider-Man storyline.
Look, I get why you would want this to happen. When I first posited the idea that Peter could be in Norman’s body, back before we saw the resurgence of the Green Goblin, I felt the same way you do. How cool would it be to see Green Goblin fight Spider-Man and have our allegiances turned on their heads? Finally, Peter gets to use some pumpkin bombs of JUSTICE! I just don’t see that happening without an even crazier explanation than the one that you are accusing us of making. In the end, I’d rather it be logical and obvious than illogical and completely out of character (our complaints about Superior #23).
We will all find out who gets the egg, probably both of us, soon…but until then I enjoy the conversation.
I do like your theory about Otto ceding control back to Peter, though. It’s quite elegant. I still refuse to believe this Green Goblin is Norman Osborn, though. Perhaps you can send me a special crow-eating fork come the end of Goblin Nation. We’ll see.
I forgot to mention that in issue #23 the Goblin expresses not knowing who is under Spider-Man’s mask. So… there’s that but that’s unfair to lay at your feet because you haven’t read it yet.
I don’t accuse you of making crazy explanations. I just don’t buy the Norman theory. Having now argued about Peter’s return, and having heard yours and Mark’s actual theories, I find they are more in keeping with the buildup for Otto’s arc, and in fact I hope that you are right about the way Peter returns, for these character reasons. On the other hand, I sincerely hope and believe still that Norman Osborn can’t be the man behind the Goblin mask, for the mystery plotting reasons I mentioned. Cmon Slott, surprise and impress me here, please.
To my defense by the way, my explanation of the bombing at MJ’s wasn’t that he was gathering intel on Ock. Rather that he was seeing if Ock would protect MJ if the shit went down. When I was more sold on my own Peter theory, I imagined Slott cutting back to this scene and having the Peter/Goblin outside the club ready to swoop in and save MJ right as Pedro arrives.